mining profitability - Bitcoin Stack Exchange

Clearing up some misconceptions (including my own) [WARNING: LONG, MATH]

I've been reviewing NAV's code for the past couple months in my spare time and have seen a few things pass for granted which I had assumed were edicts from the NAV team, but as it turns out, they were not. I'll just cover them in sections below. This is going to get long, and hopefully you like math. I'm sorry, in advance.

Coins do not gain weight with age

tldr; section title
This is the big one, and the reason I wanted to review NAV's code in the first place. I had been treating this unofficial medium article like it was the bible, and it mentions that coins are weighted with age and size. No other documentation I could find indicated any differently (honestly, there's not really other documentation, in the first place) and so, having not finished looking into the code, I presumed that was simply true.
It is not, however. I'm not even sure where this idea came from, besides that article, because no NAV team announcements I've seen have said this, but maybe I'm just not looking back far enough.

So how DOES it work?

tldr; values are hashed together and compared against a target. That target is adjusted based only on how many NAV are staking
For those who haven't looked into how NAV picks the next group of staking coins (like I hadn't), the way it works is that a bunch of publicly available values (such as the time of the block you want to make, the time and hash of the transaction that represents your coinstake, and a few others) are hashed twice through SHA256 to create a random number. The actual values input are less important, what is important for NAV's purposes is that they are available to everyone, reasonably unique, and can be verified by other nodes on the blockchain. The output is, mathematically speaking, reproducible, but also completely random.
This value is then checked against a target value that changes based on how fast the network is making blocks. If the network is making blocks around once every three seconds? The target value gets harder (smaller). If the network is making blocks around once every minute? The target value gets easier (larger). The target value just gets adjusted until the network is sitting comfortably at 30 second blocks. So far this is the same way Bitcoin keeps their block time consistent.
However, PoS currencies then usually make an adjustment to that target value to increase your chances to win. In NAV's case, they multiply the target value by the number of coins you are staking. This means that a group of 1000 coins is 1000 times more likely to stake than a group of 1 coin.
To use more accessible numbers, since the values NAV is using are huge, this would be like saying the base odds are that you have to roll a 2 or below on a 100-sided die to win the coinstake. For one roll, you have a 2% chance. For two rolls, you have a 3.95% chance, for three rolls you have a 5.88% chance, for ten you have a 18.29% chance. For n rolls, a 1 - (98^n)/(100^n) chance. To simplify this somewhat, and encourage larger groups, NAV simply says that if you have 10 coins, your chances are 10 * 2%, or 20%. It's a bit more, but it's close.
It's worth noting that, using this system, if you have 50 coins, you have a 100% chance to win every roll, whereas pure single-roll odds only give you a 63.58% chance. The reason this isn't really a problem is that, in this example, there would only be 50 coins in existence, and you probably don't even have access to half of them. Additionally, if you are winning too quickly, NAV will start handing you a 200 sided die, then a 400 sided die, until you are only winning one in 30 -- and this is assuming you're the only one playing. With a table of people, you will get a larger die until only one of you is winning one roll in 30.

Majority Attacks

tldr; if coins gained weight with age it might be an actual security concern. This way is not
The problem with Proof of Stake Age (PoSA) is that, if implemented poorly, it can create opportunities for very cheap attacks. You may have heard of a 51% attack (or majority attack) before. This is where any single entity in the Bitcoin network gains more than 50% of the hashing power. At 51% the chances of them mounting a successful network control attack are now greater than half, which presents a potential danger to the network.

In PoW

tldr; you need lots of fancy computers that you get to keep after
You need a lot of hashing power, which means a lot of computers, which means a lot of financial capital. Or, you need to combine with another organization or pool to combine your hashing power. This was actually a concern once in Bitcoin, but fortunately was resolved to no ill-effect, and ghash.io agreed to cut down their processing. In a PoW system, however, after you have executed your attack, you still have all of your computers, and can use them for something else. The financial capital you have invested is kept, and you never had to invest a single penny into the coin.

In PoS

tldr; you need lots of coins that you probably spent a lot of money on, which are probably worth very little after
In PoS currencies, a 51% attack is still possible, but in this case you would need to have more than half of the staking coins. As of a few days ago, the network weight was hovering around ~18-22 million NAV, so for NAV, you would need ~10-12 million coins to have the requisite 51% of coins. The base assumption for a PoS currency, however, is that, once you have that many coins, you're pretty invested in the network, and it is directly detrimental to you to attempt to attack it. When you execute your attack, you will likely greatly damage trust in the coin, and lose a large portion of your investment. At least, this is the theory.

In PoSA

tldr; you need a little bit of money and a lot of time
You just need to wait. The most simplistic form of PoSA is in the form: adjusted_target = coins * time * base_target. If left uncapped, the time adjustment can allow a single coin stake to outweigh the entire network. Even with a cap of three months (for a total of 7776000 age-weight), you could use a mere 797 individual 0.01 NAV stakes (7.97 NAV total) to outweigh the combined base weight of all 62 million NAV in existence. You want good actors to have the most weight on the network, but in a PoSA currency, good actors are constantly losing their weight when their time resets, whereas bad actors can get more weight for doing nothing.

In PoST

tldr; you need a little bit of money and to somehow create a bunch of coins with the same hashing window
There are some currencies, such as VeriCoin, which have attempted to address this in novel ways, using what they call Proof of Stake Time. They create an ideal window during which your coins gain weight, but after which they return to base levels. This should theoretically encourage people to keep a server running, so they can always catch that window when it happens, which is partially randomized (to prevent someone from simply making a bunch of 0.01 coinstakes at the same time and just waiting for the window). I'm not sure how battle-tested this is, and I can think of a few potential vectors for attack that might exist, depending on implementation, but it does present an interesting and promising approach to the problem of how to encourage everyone on the network to participate, instead of just large stake holders with good odds.

So how likely is it for me to actually get a stake with ___ NAV

tldr; at current network weights it's likely that 1000 NAV will stake around once a week, and 1 NAV will stake once every 17 years.
Since NAV is neither PoSA nor PoST (which I would stress isn't a bad thing, because pure PoS is comparatively simple and has known -- and addressed -- vectors of attack. It's also not necessarily a good thing; it's mostly just a thing), you're basically just as likely to stake today as you are tomorrow. Theoretically, every second should present a new opportunity to win a stake, but in practice this ends up not quite working out because there are other people on the network. Every time you accept a new block, you cut off all of the seconds before it forever. In practice, it's probably easiest to just look at the total weight of the network, and your weight, and extrapolate from there. We'll take for granted that NAV will have 30 second block times for this calculation. If you've got Python you can follow along:
>>> # 2 blocks/min * 60 min/hr * 24 hday * 365 days/year ... TOTAL_STAKES_IN_YEAR = 1051200 >>> # 60 sec/min * 60 min/hr * 24 hday * 365 day/yr ... SECONDS_IN_YEAR = 31536000 >>> # the number of coins you are staking ... stake = 1.0 >>> # The total number of coins on the network ... network_weight = 18701284.96584108 >>> my_stakes_per_year = (stake / network_weight) * TOTAL_STAKES_IN_YEAR 0.05621004128433283 >>> seconds_between_stakes = SECONDS_IN_YEAR / my_stakes_per_year 561038548.9752324 
For those keeping track, this means that a 1 NAV stake is expected to take approximately 17.79 years to see a return in the current network (and, even then, only if you happen to be online at exactly the right time and nobody else stakes it first). Coincidentally, this is where that "expected time to stake" number comes from, which I've seen people asking about. I didn't actually look that one up in the code, so I'm not sure how their exact equation differs from mine, but I arrived at the exact same numbers they did, so it's likely similar (and probably more concise, because I am both a verbose writer and programmer, if you hadn't noticed). A 1000 NAV stake, using what I am calling network math for ease of reference, is expected to take around 6.49 days. My suspicion is that the reason this is sometimes more sporadic is that going by the target alone, and testing every second, a 1000 NAV stake should be getting a hit around once every 8 hours. I generated a file of 31536000 hashes (one for each second in the year), using the rules NAV uses to create hashes, and came up with the following table.:
*Assumes a target of 0x1a183258. I forget which block I pulled this from, but it's still around there. This unpacks to a value of: 0x0000000000001832580000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Calc wins : Mathematical calculation for how many hashes you should win, given the target Hash wins : This was pulled from the file with a year's worth of random hashes. N-M Wins : The number of wins network math says you should get Hash time : The average time between wins in the randomized file for the given NAV amount N-M time : The amount of time network math says you should wait between wins NAV : Calc wins : Hash wins : N-M wins : Hash time : N-M time 1 : 1.05 : 1 : 0.05 : ~1 year : 17.79 years 5 : 5.29 : 7 : 0.28 : 41.66 days : 3.56 years 10 : 10.59 : 10 : 0.56 : 34.27 days : 1.78 years 50 : 52.95 : 44 : 2.81 : 7.49 days : 129.87 days 100 : 105.89 : 107 : 5.62 : 3.42 days : 64.94 days 200 : 211.79 : 212 : 11.24 : 41.24 hours : 32.47 days 500 : 529.48 : 532 : 28.11 : 16.39 hours : 12.99 days 1000 : 1058.97 : 1050 : 56.21 : 8.33 hours : 6.49 days 2000 : 2117.93 : 2109 : 112.42 : 4.15 hours : 3.25 days 5000 : 5294.83 : 5326 : 281.05 : 98.62 minutes : 1.30 days 1000000 : 1058966.42 : 1058455 : 56210.04 : 29.79 seconds : 9.35 minutes 
So obviously, a bit of disparity between the target-based times and the network calculated times. I would guess this has to do with other people on the network cutting you off from time values, and orphaned transactions where you did get the right value, but somebody else made a weightier one, but this is where my ability to really verify exactly what is happening starts dwindling. The disparity in N-M wins and Calc wins indicates that the target is currently too easy, and should adjust upwards, because right now coins on the network are 18.84 times weightier (calc wins column / n-m wins column) in hashing power than they should be based on the total network weight. But this is also where the whole "50 groups of 1 coin has a 63.58% chance to hit 2/100 whereas 1 group of 50 coins has a 100% chance to hit 100/100" thing comes into play.
Since the network is largely broken up into groups of, on average, 1500 coins, we're actually looking at ~12467.52 groups of 1500 coins vying to win any given block. Given the target, a group of 1500 coins should have a 0.0050369...% chance to win any given coinstake ((target * 150000000000) / maximum_hash_value). This means that the chance that at least one of the 12467.52 staking groups will match for a given second is 1 - (1 - 0.000050369...)^12467.52 = 0.4663, or 46.63%. This places the actual amount that coins are overweight a bit closer to 13.989 times. (network should have ~1/30 chance (3.33...%) to win any given second, 46.63 / 3.33...% = 13.989).
However, as mentioned, the software itself can get in the way of that, so this might just be due to a quirk of how the NAV software searches for matches, since it will abandon any seconds prior to the most recently accepted block. If you were cut off from 13 seconds in every 100, that would account for the weight disparity. In any case, I would probably trust the network math times over the pure math ones, if you're just trying to get a feel for how long you'll likely wait between stakes. What this really translates to is that, although a 1 NAV stake will probably have one second out of the year that will hash in it's favour, even running 24/7 you're likely to miss 17 of those before you actually have all the right conditions to win.
Interestingly, I did manage to find one 9.99 NAV stake that won after only 5 days; so it can happen. But it's all still random.

How does this affect my staking rewards?

tldr; it doesn't
Fortunately, NAV pays out the amount you should receive down to the second. Let's take this block at random. 1119.84133642 NAV coinstake, generated 3.82575342 NAV. The time of the previous transaction that created that coinstake was 1514741456 (see the "Raw Transaction" tab). The time of the current transaction is 1514741456. that's all we need to go on.
>>> SECONDS_IN_DAY = 86400 >>> DAYS_IN_YEAR = 365 >>> CENT = 1000000 # .01 NAV >>> COIN = 100000000 # 1.0 NAV >>> REWARD_PERCENT = 5 * CENT # will be 4 * CENT with community fund >>> # All NAV amounts in satoshi (navtoshi? natoshi?) ... stake = 111984133642 >>> # time of this stake ... stake_time = 1516896224 >>> # time of the transaction that made this stake >>> stake_prev_time = 1514741456 >>> # I'm not 100% positive why it converts to cent/seconds first, ... # but this is what the code does, so we need to as well if we ... # want to be accurate ... cent_seconds = (stake * (stake_time - stake_prev_time)) // CENT 241299827679 >>> # Now they undo the cent_seconds for some reason? I'm not sure. ... # This does, however, create a minimum coin stake for any given time. ... # 1 NAV, for instance, will not generate anything if it stakes until ... # it is exactly one day old (with a whopping 0.00013698 NAV). ... # The minimum NAV stake you can get a reward from if you get lucky ... # and stake at the end of two hours is 11 NAV. ... coin_day = ((cent_seconds * CENT) // COIN) // SECONDS_IN_DAY 27928 >>> stake_reward = (coin_day * REWARD_PERCENT) // DAYS_IN_YEAR 382575342 
note: // is a floor division. For example, 3 / 2 = 1.5, 3 // 2 = 1
And we come out the other end with exactly 3.82575342 NAV. Those are the only variables that affect your payout for staking. You then also get whatever the fees happen to be. There's not any magic to it, and so far as I can tell there's also not a limit. If you legitimately wait those 17 years for your 1 NAV to stake, your eventual payout will be on the order of 0.84 NAV. Anyways, that's pretty much all there is to your payout; it's very direct.

So is it worth it for me to stake?

tldr; personal preference
Honestly, this is entirely up to you. If you're in the "month or more" camp of coinstakers, it's probably not worth your while to be running 24/7 unless you're just really into securing the network (which, to be fair, I am all about that, so feel free). But with the blockchain at the small size it is right now, and if you're going to be using your computer anyways, it probably doesn't hurt to just run it in the background and see if you get lucky. Like pointed out, the actual amount you get is not affected by any of this. All that this means is that it is harder to predict exactly when you will get a stake. If you're concerned about financially supporting the staking, then NavTechServers has created this handy calculator to help out. From a mathematical standpoint, it's ironically much more likely for small coinstakers to get stakes if they are running 24/7, but from a financial standpoint, you're probably not getting enough to care to, so it's up to your preferences.

Cold Staking is not staking while offline

tldr; there is no magic that will allow blocks to be created without nodes on the network
I've also seen a bit of confusion over what cold staking is likely to bring, and want to ensure people aren't upset when it does get rolled out. Specifically the misconception that staking with offline coins is the same thing as staking while offline. It is physically impossible to generate a block without something connected to the network, and you only get staking rewards once you have generated a block, because the blockchain doesn't really have the tools to tell who is online and participating beyond "who made this block."
All that cold staking means is that the private keys to use your NAV to buy things or move their address are not on the server doing the staking. In general, this is accomplished via a smart contract and a secondary set of keys that is given permission to use your coins, but only for staking. If those keys are used for moving the a coin from one account to another, then the smart contract will flag it as an incorrect usage. This means that if someone hacks into your server, the only thing they could steal are the keys that permit them to stake your blocks. This is much easier to correct than someone stealing your private keys and moving your NAV to a separate address. Particl's overview of their cold staking system is a good read to get some baseline expectations.
Most implementations of cold staking do open up the possibility to sign your coins over to someone else to stake, which opens up the entirely new 51% attack vector of asking people to just GIVE you their network weight. But given that I have just recently explained to you all why one person owning a majority of the coin staking weight on the network is dangerous, I shouldn't have to tell you why this would be a bad idea, right?
RIGHT??

Summary

In any case, that's about it. Chances are the answer to the question "am I staking" is "yes", so long as the wallet tells you that it's staking. Unfortunately (but also fortunately), waiting longer only increases your chances insofar as you are trying more, but when you do eventually stake, you will be paid out based on how long you have waited, so there's not much lost.
I could go into much more depth about all this but this was about as concise as I could get it while still showing most of my work. I'd also be happy to address any other questions that arise from this, and obviously if somebody who knows better finds anything wrong with any of the details here let me know. If you wanted to get into this more in-depth, I've created a Python script which explains some of the technical aspects more thoroughly (including how to unpack the compact target number into the full value being checked in the code), and allows you to get hands-on with real block values. You can download it here. Happy hodling, everybody.
submitted by i_adore_you to NavCoin [link] [comments]

Tipping Point

What are some possible tipping points for Peercoin?
submitted by Knights_Guard to peercoin [link] [comments]

There seems to be a lot of major misunderstandings going on in regards to transaction confirmations (in particular, PoS sales)

So iv been reading posts/comments on here lately and it seems like there is some serious misunderstandings by alot of people in regards for the time it takes for a transaction to get confirmed on the blockchain, especially in the use case of merchant PoS sales.
You guys are comparing apples to oranges here
The time it takes for one confirmation is how long it takes for a transaction to be CLEARED. As in, verified, confirmed, 100% complete and irreversible transaction of bitcoins. In comparison, the transaction clearing time for credit cards is something around 30 - 60 days. At any point during that 30-60 period, you could find out that the credit card you used was actually stolen and the money gets reversed, plus you are out of pocket already from providing the product/service. In bitcoin, this same window is about 10 minutes to an hour.
If you see an incoming transaction to your address, you can be 99.9% sure that its legit and will eventually confirm. You absolutely do not need to force your customer to wait 10 or more minutes just to confirm their payment. Just give them the damn coffee and let them be. Would you make your customer wait in store for an 2 entire months just to make sure they dont call up their bank and make a chargeback?
In order to actually pull off a 0-confirmation double spend attempt, I believe it goes something like this (someone correct me if im wrong):
So basically, its a combination of capability (not many people know how to manually create transactions, relatively), timing, alot of luck and also having the balls to attempt it in person. Its not something thats a garunteed success rate. However if you happen to control > 50 % of the mining hash power, then it suddenly starts to become alot easier, which is why its important to keep our mining distributed (and why everyone freaked out in january over ghash.io)
Just think for a second how many tens of thousands (millions..?) of fraudulent credit card and bank transactions happen every single day... and not to mention how retard-edly easy it is to scam peoples credit card numbers
tl;dr it's very reasonably safe to accept 0 confirmation payments in most use cases. just dont do it for transactions where some serious cash is in play (have patience and wait the short amount of time instead)
submitted by cryptonaut420 to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

Congratulations r/Bitcoin! You have created a decentralised discussion! (P.S. Ghash.io is EVIL)

We get it. Ghash.io's hashrate is high. If your post can't fit into one of these threads about ghash.io, it's probably not adding anything substantial to the conversation.
EDIT: Decided that instead of whinging, I will try to help the community access the information that is most relevant to them. Before posting a new thread, check if one of these may be relevant.
EDIT 2: Now that Ghash.IO has made an official press release claiming that they will not act maliciously, I am going to get some well deserved shuteye. I am sure the saga will continue on without me.
Press Release from Ghash.IO
Bitcoin mining pool GHash.IO is preventing accumulation of 51% of all hashing power
Current Network Hashrate
Hashrate Distribution
Warning about Ghash.IO and Cex.IO
GHash.IO At 42% Of Mined Blocks Over Past 24 Hours.
LEAVE GHASH.IO if you mine there!
WARNING: GHASH.IO IS NEARING 51% – LEAVE THE POOL
Bitcoin Miners, Step Away From GHash.IO !
GHASH.IO RISKING WHOLE BITCOIN NETWORK KNOWN ATTEMPTED DOUBLE SPEND BY THEM
ghash.io is becoming SHOCKINGLY AGGRESSIVE NOW, closing in 45%
LEAVE GHASH.IO
WARNING: GHASH.IO IS NEARING 51% – LEAVE THE POOL (with image)
Miners Boycot Ghash.io as the Pool approaches 51% of network hashrate
If the situation with GHash.IO has shown us anything, it is that it's time we move to a p2pool.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD CHANGE THE FUCKING POOL IF YOURE ON GHASH.IO
Stop buying cloud mining at cex.io
If a large portion of mining pools are 'unknown', does this mean GHASH.IO could potentially already be over 50%?
Bitcoin Miners Ditch Ghash.io Pool Over Fears of 51% Attack
CEX.io staff threatening customers now for talking about the approaching 51% mining share...
GHASH.IO IS THE ANTICHRIST!
"How do we fix this?/Why is this bad?"
Instead of having to boycott GHash.IO, maybe fix Bitcoin?
Discussion: Mining Pools and their future
We need a mining pool with a good looking website like GHASH.IO and its affiliates
Reason why miners like me won't leave GHASH.IO or won't stop purchasing cloud based mining power through CEX.IO
I think part of the problem is that some miners don't know how to switch pools. Could some of you veterans please direct folks to the necessary guides?
Can't just restrict max number of continuous blocks from a pool / miner to one (context; big mining pools nearing 51% hash rate)
Possible GHASH.IO solution (one for the devs)
Why not issue alerts for things that threaten Bitcoin's health such as GHASH?
Explanation of Double-Spending (51% Attack) regarding nearing 51% of GHash.IO
Question: what are downsides if Ghash.IO hit 51% but choose not to doublespend?
The whole Gash.io Debacle
Looking for alternative cex.io or ... ?
The network health of Bitcoin is awful. The 2 largest pools comprise 60% of the network. All you need to do to take over the network is coerce 2 people. Please switch to P2Pools.
We love Satoshi, Satoshi was a genius, but Satoshi's mining approach just isn't working out in practice and needs to be changed.
A screen saver like the old SETI one, that only mined with P2P pool possible?
Pool Voting: Encrypting Bitcoin Transactions To Be Processed By Specific Pools
Vitalik's thoughts on the Ghash.io issue
Problem with pooled mining in general
don't want bitcoin to get 51%? support this !!
Why is a pool owning +51% of the mining network not so bad?
Could a malicious entity with a lot of hashpower (say 10% of the total network) intentionally hurt other pools?
ELI5
ELI5: Why is so bad GHASH.IO has a 51%+ marketshare?
Can someone ELI5 this whole GHASH.io 51% thing?
ELI5: Double spending
Community Reaction
Bitcoin as of late
I can't quite tell if people here think ghash.io is a problem...
Seemingly some people are upset about GHash.IO's recent increase in hashrate share...
Incase you missed it...
Is this really necessary? It is almost as melodramatic as that suicide hotline post...
Reddit idiots panicking over nothing again. Cex.io has a great business model.
GUYS QUICK! POST THAT PEOPLE SHOULD STOP USING GHASH.IO!
People have figured it out, stop posting about leaving Ghash
Clearly GHASH.IO is simply an exceptional pool that is naturally rising to the top. Why do you captains of industry want to hold them back with regulations?
Stop with the GHash.IO nonsense!
Why is no-one talking about the problems with GHASH.IO?
LEAVE GHASH.IO NOW!
Just got 8 Avalons, is Ghash.io the best pool to join?
Memes
Insanity wolf would like to have a word with you all
51%!
My dad's thoughts after I explained Ghash
Speculation
BTC Gigahash 51%, of to PeerCoin/POS+POW :)
The price of bitcoin didn't fall even a bit and maintained its average day price even through the ghash.io scare. Reasons?
Investor here. Does the Ghash.io thing have anything to do with the Yahoo malware?
The lack of privacy/anonymity, & the lack of incorporation of the P2P mining in BTC, is for the first time making me feel as though a successor is, or should be, near.
Threats against ghash.io
Let's Just DDOS the bastards and end this all ready.
I am going full fiat and you should too. We need a crash in price: it's the only signal miners can't ignore.
submitted by gabblox to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

To arms Bitcoin community! Help us to complete this mining installation for the Zürich MoneyMuseum. We are not asking for funds. Only your expertise needed! 20$ tip if you give us the relevant clue to solve or mitigate our main problem. Nice pictures of the exhibition inside as well…

Edit:
A big thank you to all people who helped us we can now mine true pps with diff1! The people in this thread which have helped most have been awarded. I want to mention also the operator of btcmp.com denis2342 and Luke-Jr.
Actually looking at the miner screen in the Linux terminal helped a lot ;-). The pool constantly resigned to stratum with variable difficulty. We can now mine true pps with diff1. Getwork with long polling seems to be default after disabling stratum...
We will probably post again, when there is a video of the installation in action...
Again many thanks. Learned a lot.
Edit: Thank you for all the answeres so far! We will try different things now and report back. Tip bounty will be distrubuted as soon as we found out what finally does the trick. Ths could take a few days. The offerd tip will be distributed and very likeley a few others as well.
First of all, let me tell you that the Bitcoin Exhibition at the Zürich MoneyMuseum is most likely the biggest and most diverse of it’s kind. Please read more about the museum and the exhibition below.
Help us solve the following problem we experience with our “Muscle Powered Proof of Work” installation:
Me and a friend have invested a lot of time to build an installation for the Museum. It is basically a 10GHash/s miner and RapberryPi which is powered by a hand generator (Maxon DC motor with planetary gear). Here are some pictures of the installation, although not entirely put together yet. There are still some changes planned.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0qcvl3wu4romhnt/AAAYF08lnVAy6W6KEepE7e2Ua?dl=0
Now let’s get to the core of our problem:
We are mining at the getwork diff1 pool btcmp.com as it is a true pps pool with getwork diff1. The visitors in the museum can power the generator for 2-3min and see directly how many Satoshis the "network" (actually pool but we don't want to confuse the visitors to much at that point) has given the museum for their work. This all works well so far but one problem remains. Sometimes the pool does not get a share from us for more than 40 seconds or even more than 60 in some cases. I have calculated that with 8.4 GHash/s we should find a share about every 0.5 seconds in average (diff1). I think when the pool gets a share it gets all the hashes as it then accounts for several Satoshis. Statistically we get per minute what we should get in theory. We would very much like to lower the time between the accepted shares by the pool, however. This would help to make the overall experience much smoother for the visitors.
Please look at this screenshot from MinePeon and answer some questions:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lb1jei4trc9kqe5/MinePeonScreenshot.png?dl=0
We see that we get a lot of diff1 hashes. However, only 11 shares/packages have been accepted. The Is there a possibility to set the miner SW so it submits to the pool as soon as a share is found? It seems to send them in packages which sometimes have 4-5 seconds in between but sometimes a much as 80 seconds. I would like to submit packages of hashes much more often. How can this be influenced?
What exactly are the Getworks (GW)?
What exactly are the Accepted ones (Acc)? This is where the TipBounty is. Help us to get a better Acc/diff1 ratio. Best would be 1:1.
What exactly are the rejected ones (Rej)?
What exactly are the discarded ones (Disc)?
What exactly are the difficulty one hashes (diff1)?
Now some of these questions seem very very basic but it is important for us to understand what these are and how we can influence these. We have a 1:1 correlation between the Acc and the pool side acknowledgement of shares/packages. So whenever the MinePeon shows one more for this value the pool value for last submitted share goes to “moments ago”.
Does the miner SW have a setting where we can set after how many diff1 hashes a package of hashes is sent to the pool? If no, do you have another idea why so few are sent? Ideally we would set it so the diff1 hashes are sent every 5 seconds or so, probably even more often.
Is stratum with fixed diff1 possible? If so, would it be better to use stratum?
Are there critical settings if we should know of? (we have tried --request-diff and --no-submit-stale)
We are using BFGMiner on MinePeon if that matters. We could switch to CGMiner if that would help. Any help is very much appreciated. The museum is doing a great job explaining Bitcoin basics. We had special focus on interactive learning and have several things to underline this.
I hope to hear back from you so we can improve our installation. Please don't hesitate to ask if you have further questions. We are both not mining experts.
Thanks for reading and AMA.
SimonBelmond
Current features of the Bitcoin exhibition at the Zürich MoneyMuseum:
Current Features:
  • Life screen with various stats/charts/parameters/transactions…
  • Printed infographics.
  • Muscle powered PoW: Hand generator with 5v and 3.5-5A output, Raspberry Pi, MinePeon, 5x Antminer U2+ plus a screen to show the hash-rate at the pool and/or in MinePeon web interface. This screen will not be hand powered. This installation will complement their coining die (go to 1:27 to see what I mean).
  • The Bitcoin mining evolution (CPU, GPU, FPGA, ASIC)
  • A few short (2-3 minutes) interviews.
  • Other wallets, Trezor, PiperWallet
  • ATM Prototype, functional
  • MoneyMuseum Bit-Cards
  • PiperWallet to use.
  • Casascius and other physical Bitcoins, Wallets (also some commemorative coins), Paper wallet like one out of the first Bitcoin (A)TM ever
  • Bitcoin Quiz
  • 12 Picture tours
    • Bitcoin for beginners
    • Bitcoin advanced
    • Debunking 13 Bitcoin myths
    • What you definitely have to know
    • The history of Bitcoin
    • Bitcoin und traditional forms of money
    • Alternatives to Bitcoin
    • Citations about Bitcoin
    • How do I open an account?
    • How do I get Bitcoin?
    • Bitcoin community and economy
    • Bitcoin as a platform
I see this as a good opportunity for Bitcoin, so let’s embrace it. I am especially excited to compare the traditional forms of money which used proof of work to the new money which also uses proof of work. I think in that context it will be much easier for the visitors to value this concept.
A lot of schools and other groups book guided tours at the museum. It is open on every Friday from December 05. On. Entry is free of charge.
Edit:Markdown, typos
submitted by SimonBelmond to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

To be clear, GHash.io has no incentive to hold back from having 51% control. Companies would kills to build a worldwide payment network that they control. We just built it for them.

The only pools that have an incentive to maintain a decentralized Bitcoin are the other pools. This likely means dropping their fees to 0% (coincidentally, the marginal cost essentially) like GHash.io to compete and attract civic-minded yet profit-maximizing rational independent miners to their pools.
Simply wishing or convincing a few miners to switch and bring GHash.io down to 46% means almost nothing. Don't forget GHash.io + "Unknown" make up 2/3 of the network. GHash.io can easily point its miners to new public addresses and hide behind "unknown" and control 50-60% of the network.
There's only one real solution here that I can see: kill the ability to mine in pools.
EDIT: *kill
submitted by iwantathink to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

Making pooled mining immune to 51% attacks, selfish mining, etc. by bundling an SPV client into mining software.

This idea has been floating in my mind for a while, but I haven't seen anyone else mention it. Figured it was worth discussing.

The problem

The threat posed by pools is that they indirectly control large amounts of hashing power. Miners are mining blindly on whatever header the pool gives them, and hence can be made to attack the network at their leisure.

GetBlockTemplate

GetBlockTemplate was supposed to fix this problem by allowing miners to do their own transactions (and making what they're mining completely transparent). This works, but adoption is low for a few reasons:
TLDR: GBT is a great way to neuter the ability of pools to do bad things™, but it isn't widely deployed due to the resource requirements and setup effort of using it properly.
Most/All the big threats posed by a large pool boil down to:
In both cases, the fact that this is occuring is actually detectable regardless of mining protocol (getwork,stratum,GBT), because the parent block hash is part of the header the miner is hashing. So the information you need to know whether you're being used to attack the network has been available all along.

The suggestion

By bundling an SPV client into mining software, all miners can verify that they're building on top of a block that is:
  1. Known to the network (blocking selfish mining).
  2. The tip of the longest chain (blocking orphaning of other blocks/51% attacks).
If this isn't the case, they can switch to their backup pool.

Advantages of the approach:

Disadvantages:

Does this work, or am I missing something obvious?
submitted by ninja_parade to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

Instantaneous Mining Cost Analysis

Thought I'd try my hand at seeing what price mining justifies. tl;dr: Looks like current efficiency and hash rate justify a price of $120. Above this price, it is rational for miners to sell immediately to reinvest in more mining equipment.
Premise 1: Any mining equipment will be online if and only if it is generating more revenue than the cost of energy to power the device.
Premise 2: Some profit resulting from coins sold is going to be reinvested into future mining equipment.
Premise 3: Very little debt is being generated to buy mining equipment.
Conclusion: We can ignore cost of mining hardware in price justification calculations, because miners don't need to "recoup" this cost - it has been paid for by past profits, with the initial profit being made by hardware already owned (cpus and gpus). You can disagree with Premise 3, in which case this analysis is a lower bound for the price to mine a coin.
Methodology:
  1. Source cost to mine a coin from Premise 1. Currently, AntminerS3 does 1.3Billion hashes per Joule, lets use that as an average. 1.9E9 hash/J
  2. Find total hashpower of network. 2.4E17 hash/s
  3. Find total cost of energy to run that much hashpower. National average around $0.12 per kWh. [$0.12 $/kWh] / [3.6E6 J/kWh] = 3.33E-8 $/J [1.9E9 hash/J] / [3.33E-8 $/J] = 4.5E16 hash/$ [2.4E17 hash/s] / [4.5E16 hash/$] = 4.44$/s [4.44$/s] * 24 * 60 * 60 = $460,800 per day.
  4. Find total bitcoins created per day. Looks like average blocks per day is around 154.25 given that we are at block#323842 at this time. 25 * 154.25 = 3,856.25 BTC/day
  5. Compare to current cost. 460,800 $/day / 3856.25 BTC/day = 119.49 $/BTC
  6. The other thing we have is how much the hash rate would need to be (at this hash efficiency/J) to justify the current price. [2.4E17 hash/s] * [Current Price ($330) / $119.49] = 6.63E17 hash/s = 663M GHash
Try to poke some holes in the reasoning and the math, I'm sure there's at least one mistake somewhere.
submitted by Polycephal_Lee to BitcoinMarkets [link] [comments]

Isn't mining centralization our real problem here?

Due to a string of recent fiascos (Chinese pools sign "we are 60% of hashpower on proposal, F2pool's RBF community screwup, F2Pool/BTC-China's BIP-66 invalid block mining), I'm no longer sure that node count decrease - the central debate on the forums when discussing blocksize - is even that important anymore, compared to miner centralization. Consider the following:
All of these concerns are not even taking into account their shitty connections that provides an array of warped incentives.
Are we screwed?
submitted by imaginary_username to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

Quick calculation: Cost of bringing the Bitcoin network to a halt.

Facts:
So with this data, let's do some calculations:
Future internet money!
BONUS 1: Many miners will accept transactions with less fees or no fees at all, bringing the cost down.
BONUS 2: GHash.io (50% hashrate) and other pools like Slush are now limiting the blocksize to 340KBs, making the attack 3 times cheaper.
BONUS 3: The core devs are planning to reduce the fees to 10% of what they are now, therefore making the attack 10 times cheaper.
submitted by satoshibe_nakamoto to Buttcoin [link] [comments]

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fee,.,0.15,.,bitcoins,.,0 25,.,bitcoins,.,0.05,.,bitcoin,.,in euro,.,bitcoin,.,2.0,.,0.1,.,bitcoins,.,0.21,.,bitcoins,.,bitcoin,.,1st august,.,bitcoin,.,1 million,.,bitcoin,.,101,.,bitcoin,.,10 year chart,.,bitcoin,.,10000,.,bitcoin,.,148,.,,.,bitcoin,.,10 year prediction,.,bitcoin,.,100k,.,bitcoin,.,100 dollars,.,bitcoin,.,10 years ago,.,1,.,bitcoin,.,in gbp,.,1,.,bitcoin,.,in pounds,.,1,.,bitcoin,.,in £,.,1,.,bitcoin,.,to dollar,.,1,.,bitcoin,.,in inr,.,1,.,bitcoin,.,to euro,.,1,.,bitcoin,.,in gdp,.,1,.,bitcoin,.,in eur,.,1,.,bitcoin,.,to myr,.,1,.,bitcoin,.,in sterling,.,bitcoin,.,2010,.,bitcoin,.,2017,.,bitcoin,.,2020,.,bitcoin,.,2018,.,bitcoin,.,2009,.,bitcoin,.,2013,.,bitcoin,.,21 million,.,bitcoin,.,2012,.,bitcoin,.,2014,.,2,.,bitcoin,.,to usd,.,2,.,bitcoin,.,price,.,2,.,bitcoin,.,to inr,.,2,.,bitcoin,.,wallets,.,2,.,bitcoins to dollars,.,2,.,bitcoins free,.,2,.,bitcoins a month,.,2,.,bitcoin,.,qt,.,bitcoin,.,2 year chart,.,bitcoin,.,2 paypal,.,bitcoin,.,3000,.,bitcoin,.,31st 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to usd,.,5,.,bitcoin,.,free,.,5,.,bitcoin,.,in euro,.,bitcoin,.,5 years,.,bitcoin,.,5 minutes,.,bitcoin,.,5 min,.,bitcoin,.,5 unlimited generator,.,bitcoin,.,666,.,bitcoin,.,6 months,.,bitcoin,.,6 confirmations,.,bitcoin,.,6 month chart,.,bitcoin,.,6000,.,bitcoin,.,60 minutes,.,bitcoin,.,6 confirmations time,.,bitcoin,.,6 month price,.,bitcoin,.,6 years ago,.,bitcoin,.,60 day chart,.,6,.,bitcoin,.,network confirmations,.,,.,
submitted by besterse to BestCryptoPlatform [link] [comments]

What hash rate does the 21inc Bitcoin computer have?

I know that the 21inc computer is just a sort of "proof-of-concept" demo device and not designed for profitable mining.
Nevertheless, I'd like to know how many GHash/s it has. At least it should mine enough to pay transaction fees.
If I am not mistaken, at current difficulty, 10 GHash/s can mine about 8000 satoshis (=2 cent) per day.
(amaz[on]ingly, I see e.g. an USB stick AntMiner with 2 GH/s for 60 EUR. That means it would take ca. 50 years to get the ROI (for zero electricity cost and constant difficulty))
Another thought experiment:
If there are 1 billion 21inc "Internet-Things" out there, each mining with the same hash rate, and if they dominate the global mining market, then each miner earns 360 satoshis per day (at 25 BTC block reward).
So certainly, the long-term vision of 21inc must be that their Internet-Bitcoin-Chips-of-Things are not primarily miners - it's apparently just a tool today to get people used to it.
submitted by Amichateur to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

What's going on with Slush's Pool?

Is it normal to take 8 hours on a block?
Current round started at: 2013-02-26 07:46:52 UTC
Current round duration: 8:34:32
Current shares CDF: 99.84 %
Current Bitcoin block, difficulty: 223227, 3651011
Pool luck (1 day, 7 days, 30 days): 81%, 91%, 105%
Current server load (60 sec average): 279 getwork/s
Connected workers, Tor workers, Stratum: 0, 0, 11196
Total score of current round: 98772340.9291
Shares contributed in current round: 23466624
Hashrate on Stratum interface (30 min average): 2732.931 Ghash/s (81%)
Approx. cluster performance (30 min average): 3345.032 Ghash/s
submitted by FapFlop to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

A beginners guide to beginning

DISCLAIMER I am not saying to support one mining client over another, or one mining pool over another, this is just what I tried and what worked for me. Also, keep in mind I'm a beginner and the experienced people who have been doing this even for a month or two will most likely have much better advice than me.
So, to anyone interested in starting up mining, I got it going last night with no previous mining experience. What I'm going to try to do here is explain the method I took (I tried a few and this one was the easiest method).
First thing I did was download the Bitcoin client here: Bitcoin.org Second thing I did was download the GUI mining client from here Third thing I did was sign up for the Deepbit mining pool Fourth step was to take my wallet address out of the bitcoin client and input that into the Deepbit website (once logged in) and just verify my settings. Fifth close the Bitcoin client, open the gui mining program and select "start bitcoin as a server" from the toolbar menu. Then, select deepbit from the drop down menu (you can select solo if you plan to not be part of a pool), fill in your credentials and hit start. I repeated this step three more times for my three other GPU's (in my case it was core0, core1, core2 and core3, representing each gpu in my two 6990's). Sixth step I did, I probably should have done first. My gpu's wound right up under load, and if you are at all familiar with 6990's, they are like banshee's telling a tornado to go fuck itself while an atomic bomb goes off. With all my gpu settings set to automatic, the fans were about 80% wound up with temps ranging from the mid-90's to around 103. Hot, for sure, but very common for these cards. I underclocked my cards down from 830, putting the two hottest gpu's to 600 with one of their fans at 70% and one at 80%. I put the other two gpu's at 700 with both fans at 60%. With those settings, my cards are all sitting at around 84-87 degrees, which is hotter than I would like, but still within reason for long term running.
I'm getting about 1.1 ghash/s with those settings. My computer is a bit sluggish, but not unusable for basic stuff. I'm going to be looking into some waterblocks for the two 6990's, and once i do that, i should be able to overclock to around 950 and still keep temps way down. I expect with those settings that I'll get around 1.6-1.8 ghash/s.
Before going this route, I had played around with the Python OpenCL Bitcoin Miner and had followed this guide in setting it up. Using scripts gives you more freedom to control how you want bitcoin and the miner to function (you can alter your workload and how much resources you want to dedicate to mining using different operator switch tags in your batch script). Essentially, with this method you will create two batch files: one for starting the server, and one for starting the miner under the conditions you want.
To me, both options work, and do what I want them to. The gui option was cleaner, easier to use and set up and just looks a lot better. The script option gives more room for customization and performance enhancing/degrading so that mining can be done all the time without crushing computer performance. It's all a preference of what suits you best.
For reference purposes, these are my computer specs: -Coolermaster HAF X case -Gigabyte G1 Killer Assassin mobo -Intel Core i7 Extreme Edition 990x CPU -Coolermaster Silent Pro Gold 1200w psu -XFX Radeon 6990 gpu (x2, run in quadfire) -24gb Corsair Dominator DDR3 ram -240gb RevoDriveX2 bootable SSD running win7 -Corsair Hydro Series H70 Cpu Cooler modified with two 140mm Silverstone Air Penetrator's -200mm side case fan, 230mm front case fan, 2x 200mm top exhaust fans, I believe all these fans are 130 cfm, but I want to swap the side 200mm for a 160 cfm fan.
EDIT: If you are downvoting and don't agree with what I have written, please explain to me why. I'm a beginner and there are still tons of things I don't understand.
submitted by aeonblack to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

A quick analysis of buying GHS at CEX.io

Hi guys, I mine Bitcoin and I'm just a small fry in comparison to the majority out there, however I thought I'd offer some small stats which some may find useful.
I have 64GH/s in asics (2 x 32GH/s block eruptors.) I have them pointed at Ghash.io.
When I started a couple of months ago these were earning me roughly 24,000 satoshi per block (0.00024000 BTC) with approximately 60-65 block rewards a day.
13 days ago I began reinvesting all of my block rewards at Ghash into GHS at CEX.io. It took me 13 days to turn the earnings from 64GH/s into 10GH/s of cloud mining power at CEX.
With 74GH/s total I'm now earning between 19500-20000 satoshi per block, which currently buys me 15MH/s of cloud mining power. If my calculations are correct I should manage another 10GH/s in another 10 days.
Despite this, without more historical data from ghash I cannot tell if mining at Ghash is profitable or worthwhile.
Hope that helps somebody. I'll update when I get to 20GH/s.
submitted by samcornwell to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

VIRTUAL MINING COIN | COIN WITH COLLATERAL SECURITY | TRUSTED ESCROW-IPO

Update: Now we have a trusted escrow service for the IPO with Anon136
Virtual Mining Coin (VMC)
(The first crypto currency with collateral security)
virtualminingcoin.org
Launch date: May 3, 2014, UTC +01:00
Translates:
Polish: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=575935.0 Russian: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=577597 German: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=578063.new#new
What is Virtual Mining Coin?
More than 200 altcoin exist in the world today and most of them have no real value . The virtual mining coin is the first crypto currency is backed by collateral, ensuring that the coins value will never become 0.
The VMC scrypt-n based mining (which is ASIC resistant), can be for anyone, from any computer.
10% of the 100.000.000 coins will be pre-mined, and the 80% of the pre-mined coins will be shared proportionally among those involved in the IPO.
The full amount of IPO will be invested in cex.io, and will be kept in GHS. BTC produced by the GHS daily reinvested to ensure a steady increase in the coverage of our coin.
The amount of funds are generated continuously, will be visible to everyone on our website.
60 days from the launch of the mining the mined coins are going to be redeemable at any time, at the current coin value. Actual coin value displayed in GHS which is also will be visible to everyone on our website.
The calculation of the current value of the coin: all GHS we have / 100.000.000 coin
What is CEX.IO where we have GHS?
CEX.IO - is the first and leading commodity exchange in the Bitcoin community. Here we can buy or sell GHashes for the Bitfury ASIC chips or just trade on the increase or decrease of chip values. We simply purchase GHashes in the exchange and we will instantly become an owner of GHashes that are making income for us.
If you haven't got CEX.IO account, please register here , then you will be able to receive GHS from us.
IPO addresses:
You can send us directly the amount to this adress: 1FtMD3jz3Yhobt1JSBs2FzGiPcBKtNeWfW (If you want to send here the amount, please send us an email first!)
Or if you prefer, you can use our trusted escrow service here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=572321.msg6282001#msg6282001
IPO holders:
Invested BTC Name E-mail address Expected VMCs 0,10 Danny dan**@hotmail.com 2000000 0,15 Mike pro**@gmail.com 3000000 0,15 DssTech adi***@gmail.com 3000000
Official Website:
virtualminingcoin.org
Specifications:
 - Transaction Confirms: 5 - Block Confirms: 50 - MAX Coin: 100.000.000 - Block value: 171.2 - Block Time: 60 Seconds - Retarget: EVERY 5 blocks / 5 Minutes - KGW Implemented with TIMEWRAP FIX - SCRYPT-N ADAPTIVE (ASIC resistant) - New features: The wallet is a Static build, which means there are no DLL files required to run the wallet. - Premine: 10% (80% of the pre-mined coins will be shared proportionally among those involved in the IPO.) Other 20% for the maintenance, developing and the bountys. 
All wallets have done, we will publish them after launch.
vmc.crypto-coinz.com (Open for registrations now) 1% Fee PPLNS Bonuses Owner loves coin so much, he is giving out Block Bonuses!
vmc.okaypool.com 0% Fee
vmc.hopto.org 0% Fee Pre-Registration PROP Payout & pay Every minute
vmc.talesfromthescrypt.org 1% Fee Open for Pre-Registration! PROP Payout
www2.coinmine.pl/vmc/ 1% Fee Open for Pre-Registration!
Coming soon...
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/VMC_news
submitted by vmcoin to altcoin [link] [comments]

I support ghash.io and hope they get more control over the network.

I wish ghash.io was 60%, 70% or more of the total bitcoin hashrate.
Bitcoin is broken for what it was originally designed for, and why everyone initially joined it.
They are doing a great service as they are making the flawed design of bitcoin more obvious. Hopefully this will help get it fixed.
submitted by Vespco to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

Bitcoin or bitcon? Part one  60 Minutes Australia How Much Can You Make Mining Bitcoin With 6X 1080 Ti Beginners Guide Miner du Bitcoin - Définition et exemple de GHash.IO 6/16/14 - Ghash.io calms the masses, Coin Pocket back on iOS, & BitGo raises $12 Million Earn bitcoin faucet 20 to 60 sathoshi every hour

Bitcoin history for 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019. Bitcoin price chart since 2009 to 2019. The historical data and rates of BTC Andresen suggests that GHash may control as much as 60% of the total hashing power, and notes “That isn’t good.” While he suggest that individual miners join smaller pools or run bitcoind and p2pool, he also notes that a group like GHash gaining a majority of the hashrate isn’t exactly disastrous. Industrial bitcoin mining company BitFury announced today that it has moved 1.5 petahash from the GHash.io pool following widespread concerns of hashrate centralization and growing fears about the potential of a 51% attack. The company maintains two high-powered mining facilities in Iceland and Finland, taking advantage of those countries extremely low energy costs. Should the … Ghash.io was launched in July 2013 and last year gained some notoriety through its success: In June 2014. it briefly gained control of 51% of the entire bitcoin network. This majority control is arguably the biggest threat to bitcoin, and demonstrates the power of miners when they get too large it could have rewritten the blockchain however it Bitcoin Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for Bitcoin crypto-currency enthusiasts. It only takes a minute to sign up. There are 1,000 Ghash per Terahash, and there are 1,000 Mhash per Ghash. 60 seconds/minute * 60 minutes/hour * 24 hours/day = 86,400 seconds per day.

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Bitcoin or bitcon? Part one 60 Minutes Australia

BITCOIN on 60 Minutes - Millionaire Investor Turns Pro Bitcoin - Amazon Crypto Patent - Coinbase - Duration: 14:53. Thinking Crypto 9,906 views. 14:53. The price of Bitcoin is now rapidly retreating, but true believers say there are going to be many more digital goldrushes just like it. As Tom Steinfort discovers though, buyers need to beware ... This video is unavailable. Watch Queue Queue. Watch Queue Queue bitcoin 51 percent bitcoin 51 ghash bitcoin 500 bitcoin 5 year chart 5 bitcoins ... bitcoin 600 bitcoin 6 month chart bitcoin 60 minutes bitcoin 6950 bitcoin 6870 6 bitcoin 6 bitcoins in usd Since purchasing Bitcoin.com in mid-April, Blockchain.info has been working to revamp the site and build it out as the ultimate Bitcoin beginners portal - or as the company puts it, "a user ...

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